Q&A: Oscar-Free Dames, Supporting Shortlists, Disney Renaissance
Tuesday, July 12, 2016 at 11:30PM Just answering six reader questions this afternoon for time constraints so we'll do another handful later in the week. Thanks for all the great Qs, readers! Here we go.
GSHAQ: Do you feel the gap is widening between the stories told in mainstream movies and contemporary issues? Oops, that might be an essay.
NATHANIEL: This question hurts my brain but I'll try. I do fear for the health of cinema which directly addresses contemporary issues. For a long time the movies have preferred past-tense filters for social and political issues, once it's safer since history has sorted out consensus. The best of those past-tense films also address the here and now through their resonant power (see: Selma). And there's something to be said for the facility that good genre films have in addressing the way we live via metaphor (The Babadook, Bridesmaids, and Melancholia are MUCH better films about depression than some earnest dramas that directly take it on) Even superhero films can be reflective of the here and now in spite of (or maybe because of) all their mixed messages and contradictory 'have it both ways' politics. I don't think it's an accident that Batman v Superman and Captain America: Civil War, whatever their disparate qualities, are asking the same questions about Might Equalling Right and whether we have the right checks and balances in place for those in power. These are issues that we're facing in very real ways all over the world. But, that said, we do need a reenergized contemporary cinema. If we can only think about tough issues through metaphor or by dwelling on the past, we have some maturation to do as a society!
It's true that movies made in the right-now about the right-now can age quickly (see movies we've recently discussed like Working Girl) but if they're any good -- and sometimes even when they aren't -- they make great time capsules about the way we were, the things we valued, and the issues that laid claim to our collective mental real estate.
BVR: Rank the animated movies from the Disney Renaissance (1989-1999). Extra: which is the most underrated?
NATHANIEL: This is cheating and asking for a top ten list but here's a NON commital answer after the jump...
THE BEST: [tie] Beauty and the Beast / The Little Mermaid - I think Beauty is probably Disney's best modern film (sans Pixar). I'll never forget the morning of its historic Best Picture Oscar nomination. But Mermaid is the one that actually means the most to me so if both sets of negatives were burning in a fire I'd have no idea which one to save and I'd probably burn up right along with them from the hesitation.
MASTERFUL MESSES: Pocahontas / The Hunchback Of Notre Dame Yes, both of these films have a lot of wonky bits and significant problems. But they're also thisclose, every once in a while, to being masterpieces. And that counts for a lot with my fandom. Plus there's never been a more beautiful Disney princess (Pocahontas) or a more underrated Disney song score (Hunchback). So together they're the Most Underrated.
EVERYONE LOVES THEM SO I DON'T HAVE TO: Aladdin & The Lion King. It never occurs to me to rewatch. I get why people love them (mosty) but I can't say I really have a personal connection to either.
I BARELY REMEMBER THEM SUITE: Hercules / Mulan / Tarzan - It would be weird to rank them though I remember thinking Hercules was really funny. But I'm about to rewatch Tarzan (which I don't remember fondly at all)for our Swing, Tarzan Swing! series so wish me luck.
N/A: The Rescuers Down Under -I haven't seen that one.
CARLOS: For some reason I've been thinking of Clouzot's Les Diaboliques this weekend. Are you a fan? I think it's so good and so criminally underseen!
I have actually seen it but it was so long ago that I don't have a firm memory other than a big thumbs up. I watched it around the time of the remake with Isabelle Adjani and Sharon Stone, so at least something good came out of that unfortunateness.
OSCAR MADNESS
PHILIP H: Name an actress or two (from either the 90s or 00s that was kind of expected to have been nominated by now) that you'd like to see have a comeback/nomination in the next few years.
Kirsten Dunst is my #1 hope for major feature film comebackThat list would have to include actresses that emerged in the 80s that still felt like they were ascending in the early 90s through everyone that emerged that decade. That's a HUGE swath of performers. Some of them became mostly thought of as box office players or arthouse queens (Ryan, Diaz, Barrymore, Moore, Aniston, MacDowell, Posey, Gong Li), others moved primarily to TV sometimes with great success (Wright, Danes, Ricci, Barkin, The Parkers Sarah Jesica/Mary Louise, Heche, Kudrow), others vanished for long stretches poking their toes back in on occassion or just disappeared (Glenne Headly, Madeleine Stowe, Mary Stuart Masterson, Lindsay Lohan, Neve Campbell, Bridget Fonda); and then the really hard to categorize as she's a little of everything (Kirsten Dunst)
The Aughts brought us another batch -- mostly box office or indie queens: (Johannson, Stewart, Fanning, Ziyi, Seyfried, Watson, Howard, Beckinsale, Lopez, Kruger, Saldana, Tatou); mostly moved to TV (King, Washington, Lohman): or have had erratic careers in terms of attention paid and/or vanishing (Gabrielle Union, Naomie Harris, Ashley Judd, Julia Stiles, Selma Blair, Leelee Sobieski, Rebecca Hall, Katherine Heigl); and then the really hard to categorize as she's a little of everything (Eva Green).
I have no idea why we just named 47 people like I'm a listing mad man (oh, right, yes) but it would be bliss to see Eva Green and Kirsten Dunst in the Oscar race some day. I also cross my fingers for Christina Ricci and Dakota Fanning to win back some of their child performer magic and/or popularity as adults -- hey, some child stars do! But there are only two of these 47 names listed that I have total faith will eventually be nominated: Scarlett Johansson and Kirsten Stewart. I think both are too famous to ignore much longer given that they keep challenging themselves and have already been worthy of at least one nomination each.
MIKE: We know we do supporting actress smackdowns because it's the most interesting acting category. And that we don't smack down supporting actors because their category is often the dullest. But if we did, is there a supporting actor year you would want to examine?
When AMPAS comes up with a good list in supporting actor we can safely assume it's by accident, like a broken clock being right twice a day. But there are some years that would be interesting. Here's three I'd probably place high on the "to do" list if we ever went there.
Robert Stack in Written on the Wind (1956)
1956: Murray (Bus Stop), Perkins (Friendly Persuasion), Quinn (Lust for Life), Rooney (Bold and the Brave), and Stack (Written on the Wind). That shortlist is an intruiging mix of varied actors and disparate genres. Plus I have only seen two of the films. The final reason: any excuse to rewatch Written on the Wind is always a good one.
1962: Begley (Sweet Bird of Youth), Buono (Baby Jane), Savalas (Birdman of Alcatraz), Sharif (Lawrence of Arabia), and Stamp (Billy Budd), Why? This one's entirely because I have no idea who would win.
1995: Cromwell (Babe), Harris (Apollo 13), Pitt (12 Monkeys), Roth (Rob Roy), and Spacey (Usual Suspects). I'd choose this year because it would be interesting to read serious takes on the four losing performances that year since Spacey sucked up all the oxygen at the time even if Brad Pitt did sneak the Globe.
Dame Penelope Wilton as The Queen in "The BFG"KERMIT: Of the following British Acting Dames without an Oscar nomination, who should feel most aggrieved? Eileen Atkins, Joan Collins, Penelope Keith, Sian Phillips, Diana Rigg, Harriet Walter, Penelope Wilton, Barbara Windsor.
I tend to think of all of these Dames as primarily television or stage actresses. Did any of them ever deserve a competition Oscar nomination? Atkins, Walter, and Wilton still work enough that perhaps it's not out of the question that a plum nominatable role will fall into one of their laps IF Maggie or Judi suddenly feel like taking a year off. Walter's tight lipped haughtiness tends to win her villain roles but she always aces them (love her as the evil in-law in Sense & Sensibility), I hear Wilton is amazing in The BFG, and Atkins was so good in Magic in the Moonlight that you only wanted to stop the film, rewind, and make it a different film altogether about her giving advice to her hopeless relatives. But the film was so weak she was MVP almost by default. The answer to your question is probably Atkins by process of elimination. Maybe she came close for The Dresser (1983) for which she was BAFTA nominated?
P.S. I don't think she deserves an Oscar but I bet that if another actress successfully played Joan Collins in a biopic about the Collins sisters -- MAKE THIS HAPPEN, UNIVERSE -- she'd be nominated! Could you imagine how fab that movie would be?
Jackie and Joan Collins in the late 70s
YOUR TURN Readers. What do you make of my answers to these questions? Which Disney Renassiance film do you this is most underrated? and which Dames and other actresses are you still rooting for for a first nomination?
Reader Comments (43)
Agree with your thoughts on Hunchback. The music is absolutely incredible. Out there and the bells of notre dame are bona fide classics. And how hellfire remained in the film (would not happen today, methinks) is a true wonderful mystery (soooo lusty that one). However it may not be underrated exactly because it got reworked for the stage, which means there is interest there. Hercules is also great and deserving of a rewatch. Great music, especially "go the distance."
One line made me slightly laugh: "history has sorted out consensus." Lol, nope. I get what you're saying though: movies treat historical subjects as if this is the case but ask any historian about "consensus" in their field and you are sure to get a belly laugh. Part of the reason I hate the king's speech so much is that it paints in such ridiculously broad strokes (Edward will make a terrible king because he has great sex with an American and is flippant about hitler, "Bertie" will be a great king because he's a family man and knows the power of friendship and never gives up snnnoooorrrreee). The real reason that it seems like there is historical consensus in film is because historical subjects rarely get treated with any subtlety: a problem of writing and direction, not "history."
Joan doesn't need an Oscar just a lifetime achievement for looking so regal and fabulous for 80 odd yrs,
A big yes to a Supporting Nomination for Atkins in The Dresser one of those Rosemary Harris/Catherine Keener/Jane Alexander nods seeming to be doing little but giving us lots and lots of info.
Charlotte Rampling's career nomination was so satisfying until she opened her mouth about Oscars so white and decided she's a victim. It'd be nice if Redgrave could secure a 7th nomination. She deserves a second competitive win because she's a greater actress than most of the multiple winners. The Little Mermaid actually feels underrated to me. It's also my favorite of the Disney Renaissance movies.
First, I wanna thank you for putting that Kirsten Dunst photo in your article (*Drool*). Anyway, not growing up a big Disney kid, I'm among the crowd that loves The Lion King (It's in my Top Ten Favorite Films). I remember liking Aladdin and Beauty and the Beast when I saw them but that was a long time ago. I've never been too interested in The Little Mermaid and I haven't seen the rest of those.
In terms of your answer to actresses you want to see make a comeback/get an Oscar nomination; I haven't seen Fargo but Dunst is talented, so I'd like to see her re-emerge. I think Ziyi should've been a star, I'm partial to Julia Stiles (her series Blue on WIGS definitely showed she had serious chops but I've always liked her) and Ricci has always been good.
Most underrated has to be Hunchback by far. Lion King is extremely overrated. I've never been into it.
I just watched Being John Malkovich and I can't believe that Cameron Diaz ended up being sixth spot in that lineup! She's so earnest and amazing in such a tricky part. I love the surprise Colette nomination so maybe we can just swap out Samantha Morton instead? That absolutely should've happened. Maybe her very possible Emmy will spark enough renewed interest in Kirsten Dunst to give her a worthy vehicle.
And as someone who just watched Equus as background to the 1977 smackdown, I thought Atkins was easily the best actress in show, and given some of what did make it in and the fact that she was practically the only person in that cast not to get ANY attention at all, an Oscar nod for her there would've been more than welcome.
I also love Supporting Actor '93, if only because to me that's the year DiCaprio should have won.
A Neve Campbell shoutout! Be still my gay heart.
sienna Miller as the young Jackie.
I think The Lion King is fine but never got the love for it. I really enjoyed Aladdin at the time but I also kinda loved Hercules, too. That score is great - any of the songs with the 5 gospel women is just fantastic, insanely catchy and great lyrics. Meg's lament with the "doo-wop" background singers also works really well. The whole film is a bit too ADD, the jokes actually fly by TOO fast like it's trying too hard, but overall it's really enjoyable with a really endearing protagonist at its center.
Well to me The Lion King is absolutely the best Disney film of all time. It is both a childhood thing and a family thing. In the 80s my parents worked in Kenya as a science teacher ( my father ) and cooking classes for women in the bushes (my mother). Our house was full of Kenyan things like a huge python skin, tons of Masai warrior stuff, paintings and pictures of the wild life and so on. And they taught me the very basics of swahili as well. So when the Lion King came my parents took us to the movies and the whole family really enjoyed that particular movie experience.
Thanks for answering my question, Nathaniel!! Agree on the big thumbs up.
Also... damn, Kirsten Dunst is looking FOINE!
"any excuse to rewatch Written on the Wind is always a good one"
So true. Can you put this on your list for hit me with your best shot or Themla & Louise 5 part treatment?
SCARLETT JOHANSSON AND DAME DIANA RIGG FTW!
Last year Penelope Wilton was in a play called 'Taken At Midnight'' based on a true story' for which she won the Olivier Award for Best Actress. She played a mother whose lawyer son tried to call Hitler up to the witness stand in the 1930's, so that he could cross-examine him. The son was then arrested and put into prison. The plays deals with her struggle to try and get him released. If anything's prime Oscar bait, it's that story. It was very good though.
I was never into "Lion King", and I was 9 when it came out so I was certainly in the demographic. I have since summed up my reaction as "hey Disney, stop telling me how to feel about my Dad."
Kiki is owning that plunging neckline. Go ahead, girl.
It's sad that Ed Harris didn't win that '95 Supporting Oscar. Pitt has one (yeah, it's for producing, but whatever) and Spacey absolutely does not have a career or a talent justifying two. Harris is an indispensable character actor, he deserves to be an Academy Award-winning actor, but he probably won't win one at this point, and Honoraries for actors are generally reserved for bigger stars.
Diana Rigg is currently working for that Emmy on Game of Thrones, which she totally deserves.
I regards to the supporting actor smackdown- Stack, Sharif, and Spacey wn for me.
Kirsten has always had an effortless sensuallity about her. She has a good shot at Oscar with Scarlett since they are both famous enough. Since Julia, Reese, and Sandra all have Oscars, I am surprised Cameron Diaz hasn't gotten nominated yet. She is one the the America's Sweetheart girls and she has put a lot of money into people's pockets. She tried with The Counseler, and well, that didn't work out. But I'd say she is owed a nomination at least. History remembers you better with an Oscar nomination.
Eileen Atkins was brilliant in "Wit", which was an HBO production. I always thought that both Emma Thompson & Atkins would have been nominated if that had been released as a film.
Atkins was also great in "Gosford Park" - she could have easily gotten a supporting nomination except that there was so much competition from the rest of that cast.
The Little Mermaid is my favorite of the Disney bunch and that is almost exclusively because of Ursula who is my absolute favorite villain of any Disney movie ever. What a glorious bitch she is.
The full Broadway Cast Recording of Hunchback that Disney released a while back is stunningly beautiful.
Maybe as life gets too real the movies veer more and more into fantasy? There is certainly no shortage of dramatic and important topics now in the news. But I really can't imagine "The China Syndrome," "Silkwood," or "Network" getting approved now. Maybe future generations (if humans survive) will have to decipher modern times.
With Disney for me, it's always a flip of a coin between BEAUTY & THE BEAST and ALADDIN. I can re-watch both on loop forever until the end of time and be completely satisfied. That said MULAN is certainly underrated and I'm most excited for Disney to turn it into a live action film someday.
A lot of cleavage in this post. Jackie Collins makes a valiant effort, but Kirsten Dunst is the clear winner.
LadyEdith I concur with Atkins in Gosford Park. I remember thinking that with so much competition in her own film she didn't stand a chance, but personally I considered her first among equals.
47 actresses from the 90s and the 00s that might be comeback-worthy, and no room for Thora Birch.
Poor Thora.
I knew you'd mention Kirsten Dunst and really, that was my objective lol. If she's never nominated, I'll truly be sad. I had a dream a few months ago about the 2011 Best Actress lineup and she had been nominated for Melancholia. I was sad when I woke up and realized it was just a dream haha.
And yeah, poor Cameron Diaz. Sixth place in voting twice (Being John Malkovich and Vanilla Sky).
As for the Disney movies, Lion King is #1, then Mulan, then Hercules. But I have a very skewed view of these things since this was my childhood. I literally watched Lion King every single day as a child lol. Beauty and the Beast is obviously great too. Pocahontas has some great songs, and I love the story of Hunchback but never really got into it. I think we can all agree that Tarzan is the worst tho.
Dunst feels like a Patricia Arquette possibility. Supporting Actress can be a haven for neglected vets.
Agree with you completely about both the best and the most underrated Disney films. I rewatched Hercules not long ago and whilst it's not quite as good as I remember it, it's still very funny with probably the last great Disney song, I Won't Say I'm In Love. Tarzan has some nice visuals, but otherwise is entirely forgettable. Mulan has one really wonderful visual when they come across the vista of dead bodies, but generally feels pretty slight.
@Tom - Diana Rigg didn't submit to the Emmys for Game of Thrones this year, one of the year's strangest omissions.
Honestly, Kirsten Dunst's performance in Fargo might be my favourite work of hers yet, but I assume she'll be watching from the sidelines as Sarah Paulson grabs that trophy at the Emmys this year.
Will also use this space to complain that Julie Walters isn't a Dame yet, even though of course she has her Oscar nominations.
Is Joan Plowright a Lady or a Dame? Of both?
I wonder why Glenda Jackson and Julie Christie haven't been honored this way.
Probably politics...just like Vanessa Redgrave.
My pick for the next to be honored: Emma Thompson!
Thank you for doing such a great job each and every day with this blog! You always think that you are alone or different and that NO one can ever share the same passions or curiosity as your self! Than I found this blog and knew I had a new bunch of friends when I saw an article on Elizabeth Hartman who thought I was the only one that respected her short movie work. But I digress! My question is ,is there an era in movie making that you are obsessed with? I have been obsessed with that late50's early 60's British realism/kitchen sink drama era. So many great films came out of that time period that I can watch over and over again. A Taste of Honey,This Sporting Life.Look Back In Anger,Billy Liar,Room At The Top, A Kind of Loving etc. Just your thoughts as I value your opinion and much thanks!.
Patryk - I don't know if that's what you meant by politics, but Redgrave is not a dame because she turned it down. I wouldn't be surprised if Christie had done the same. In Jackson's case I guess it would've been weird to honour her while she was an MP (which she was until very recently). It's surprising that Emma Thompson's not a dame yet. I guess she's still quite young by those standards (poor Angela Lansbury only got it a couple years ago in her 80s), but then Kristin Scott Thomas, who's more or less Thompson's age, is already a dame. This is all obviously silly antiquated honours anyway! But the trends are curious.
Pocahontas is such an underrated classic. And PREACH Nathaniel, she's The. Most. Beautiful; that neck, that profile, the way her hair blows in the wind... (Ok I'll stop now, I'm getting creepy) (cartoon crushes is a whole other legitimate topic.)
I'd put that film third after Beauty & The Beast and The Lion King.
Carlos - I agree about Christie and think that Jackson would certainly decline, based on her political views.
The only reason I can think KST beat the rest of her generation to the title is her consistent stage work and film work in the UK, France and USA. Non-stage actresses seem to have to wait much longer to be honoured and Thompson has barely graced a West End stage since her film career took off...
Nathaniel - thank you for answering my question! I agree about Atkins, though was also wondering about who might feel aggrieved about opportunities missed. Atkins and Rigg can both play 'sexy' in their sleep and could easily be in Mirren's shoes right now.
Young film-makers need to write a movie for Joan Collins NOW. She would clearly fund it herself in pursuit of critical acclaim, which would be a lovely Awards Season narrative...
Remember 90's Rose McGowan and Rebecca Gayheart? They need a comeback.
Ibis - I wouldn't count on McGowan making a comeback. She has said in interviews that she is sticking with directing.
Regarding the Disney films: I wish that had spoiler alerts regarding who is providing the voices to the characters. I like the 'classic' Disney animated films because I didn't perceive the actors behind the characters reading from a script. If there's an actor I temporarily can't stand, Demi Moore as Esmeralda!, Rosie O'Donnell in Tarzan!, Whoopi Goldberg in The Lion King, Eddie Murphy 'doing cross-dressing investigation as helpfully picks up a trans-prostitute at 3 a.m. as he readies his role in Disney's upcoming girl-disguised-as-boy film 'Mulan,' - it dimishes the quality/enthusiam of even wanting to this the film. Would you have like Inside Out as much if you knew ahead of time that a voice was provided by one of the Kardashians? Would parents have been thrilled to see Finding Dory had a voice been provided by O.J. Simpson, James Deen or Paula Dean?
I have all these Disney movies on DVD, so it's my favorite Disney period tbh.
But I feel like The Lion King is a bit overrated. Just a bit and that doesn't mean I don't like it. I do.
As for underrated I'd go for Mulan, Hercules (in the mythology Hera is not his mother and she tries to kill him every time-but it doesn't bother me much. Just noteworthy.) and The Recuers Down Under. And even Tarzan is quite fun.
Pocahontas' story goes a bit way to fast forward imo, but the animation is great.
The Little Mermaid was the first movie I've seen in a theatre together with my best friend, so it will have always a special place in my heart.
@ ben1283 say it isn't so! Miss Rigg was doing her best work on that show this season. Her last scene with Natalie Dormer (which was the final scene Dormer shot for the series) is just heartbreaking.
"Lion King" had celebrity voices, but I don't remember it overwhelming the media hype surrounding it. I was a child of "Disney Adventures" at the time -- a GREAT magazine that never talked down to its young audience, btw -- and my fellow critic at the time, a girl two years older than me, told me that "The Lion King" is the best movie they'll ever make, and that's why "Pocahontas" wasn't as good if you were 8-10 years old at the time.
TOM in all caps, your post made me realize how good the casting of "Inside Out" was. Yeah, it's Amy Poehler's starring vehicle, but everyone in their cast is so good at the part they're doing (Black, Hader, Kaling and Smith -- and Richard Kind) that it seems as natural as can be. James Earl Jones as Mustafa was natural, but that's because he has that rich, baritone, booming voice seemingly of a king.
Recently there's been a trend of small indie films starring veteran actresses being critical successes and reviving some of these actresses career even if for a short time (e.g. Grandma, I'll See You in My Dreams, Hello My Name is Doris). With Pfeiffer being brought back later this year with some indie work who are some actresses from the late 70's early 80's that you feel deserve a comeback in one of these types of films?
e.g. Dianne Wiest, Debra Winger, Sissy Spacek, Goldie Hawn, Diane Keaton, etc.
I read somewhere that Emma Thompson hasn't yet been honored because she's an atheist, and probably anti-monarchy.
Great you acknowledge that Pocahontas has brilliant moments Nat, people usually just say historically inaccurate/boring and ignore it sadly.