Smackdown '00: Chocolat, Billy Elliott, Pollock, and Almost Famous
Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 8:07PM Welcome back to the Supporting Actress Smackdown. Each month we pick an Oscar vintage to explore through the lens of actressing at the edges. This episode goes back to the turn of the millenium, when Almost Famous, Pollock, Billy Elliot, and Chocolat were new in theaters and the following actresses were having a moment...
THE NOMINEES 2000 provided a bevy of possibilities in the supporting actress category but Oscar ignored the gifted comediennes (Parker Posey in Best in Show and Elaine May in Smalltime Crooks), the foreign divas (Catherine Deneuve in Dancer in the Dark and Zhang Ziyi in Crouching Tiger), indie darlings (Lupe Ontiveros in Chuck & Buck) and even women in Best Picture contenders (Catherine Zeta-Jones in Traffic, Connie Nielsen in Gladiator). What they came up with instead was an almost eerily archetypical shortlist which included five different kinds of traditional Oscar-friendly roles: long-suffering wife, feisty grandmother, manic pixie dream girl, mama bear, and the tough mentor. The mix of actors was also super traditional: Oscar voters invited back two recent previous winners (Judi Dench and Frances McDormand), one returning nominee (Julie Walters), and welcomed to the club one rising character actress (Marcia Gay Harden) and a golden child of Hollywood (Kate Hudson).
THE PANELISTS Here to talk about their performances and films are (from left to right) actor Nicholas D'Agosto (Trial & Error, Masters of Sex), journalist Kyle Buchanan (New York Times), actress Vella Lovell (Mr Mayor, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend), and from The Film Experience, Eric Blume and your host Nathaniel R. Let's begin...
SUPPORTING ACTRESS SMACKDOWN + PODCAST
The companion podcast can be downloaded at the bottom of this article or by visiting the iTunes page...
JUDI DENCH as "Armande Voizin" in Chocolat
Synopsis: A stubborn sickly grandmother reunites with her grandson through the help of a kindhearted chocolate-shop owner.
Stats: 66 yrs old, 22nd film, billed. Third nomination (of an eventual seven). 14 minutes of screen time (or 12% of the running time)
Eric Blume: Dame Judi doesn’t stretch in any way here, and not much is required of her in this role of Cantankerous Codger, French Village division. She doesn’t even attempt to be the slightest bit French, but she finds a winning rapport with Juliette Binoche, and she plays her small arc with a subtle grace. She has one moment, when her grandson unveils his drawing of her, where she touches her fingers to her face, and we don’t actually see her reaction… but Dench does more with her trembling hand than most actresses could do with a tight close-up. ♥♥
Kyle Buchanan: Dench is perfectly fine in this minor role but it’s hard to believe she even would have been singled out were it not for her Shakespeare in Love win two years prior. If the Academy just had to give this slot to someone from Chocolat — and they really, really didn’t have to — then why not Lena Olin, who at least brings some wild-eyed verve to this too-tidy fable? ♥♥
Nicholas D'Agosto: There’s no reason to take anything away from Judi Dench’s performance in this movie. She’s charming, compelling, grounded and pitch-perfect on her comedic timing, as always. It’s just not anything extraordinary. It’s not her fault. It’s not in the script. It felt to me as though she was given a nomination simply for playing a role that required her to be rougher, bawdier and lower class in ways opposite the many roles that have made her famous… … But you know who did deserve a supporting actress nomination from this film?? Lena Olin as Josephine Muscat!! How the hell did the Academy think it was worth it to not only pass on her performance, but to give a nomination to a less deserving role from the same movie? ♥♥♥
Vella Lovell: I mean, it’s Dame Judi Dench in one of my favourite feel-good movies. A consummate performer. She subtly elevates the movie. Her physical acting work is impressive—she somehow feels twenty years older than she did in Cats, and this was filmed twenty years ago. In this movie, she’s supposed to have severe diabetes, and the way she moves communicates that her whole body aches and it’s almost impossible to travel thruough space. She’s also always fighting internally with herself—her desire for love and community combating her strained relationship with her daughter and her terminal illness, while still innocently discovering joy and sweetness in old age. She sheds layers of her shell in every scene. You love her character and want to embrace her, yet you know she would swat at you and curse at you, all the while secretly enjoying it. I love her in this movie. Again, it’s Dame JD, what else do we expect? ♥♥♥♥
Nathaniel R: I giggled the second Dame Judi showed up. I had forgotten that she was playing a Frenchwoman and that we meet her after we've already met the French star, and an American actress attempting a French accent while playing Dench's onscreen daughter. Dench just shoos and side-eyes any expectations of reality (and we are in a fairytale anyway... so: fair). She plays it exactly as written -- ornery, stubborn, and old... with a secret heart of gold. Any good actress of Dench's age could have done it just as well but she is touching when she lets the ice thaw. Not because she thaws but because of her own discomfort and embarrassment that she has; it's the one insighftful punch of this performance. ♥♥
Reader Write-Ins: "Love her but there is nothing subtle going on with this performance" - B.K. (Reader average: ♥♥)
Actress earns 15 ❤s
MARCIA GAY HARDEN as "Lee Krasner" in Pollock
Synopsis: A struggling artist attaches herself willfully and indispensably to a rising genius, becoming his wife and also, in effect, his publicist and manager and mother. He needs, he needs.
Stats: 41 yrs old, 17th film, 2nd billed. 1st nomination (of an eventual two). 46 minutes of screentime (or 37% of the running time)
Eric Blume: Harden’s duet with Ed Harris is acting heaven: two magnificent performers who rarely get material this meaty, bringing out the best in one another. Instead of trapping herself in this stock supporting actress role of Long-Suffering Wife…she makes that her jumping off point. You see the choices the intelligent, talented Lee Krasner makes to push down her own dreams to support her boy/man husband, and Harden fills in the gaps on the whys. You fully know where Lee is emotionally at all times, and that’s rarely due to the script. Harden’s work is authentic in every way: the Brooklyn accent, the frustration, the patience, the broiling rage, the exhaustion. Her magnetism is off-the-charts: I think this may be one of the Best Supporting Actress wins ever. ♥♥♥♥♥
Kyle Buchanan: This is one of my very favorite Oscar-winning performances and not just because Harden’s last-minute nomination, followed by an out-of-nowhere win, can provide a glimmer of hope to contenders who’ve been unjustly overlooked. (After SAG and the Golden Globes snubbed Paul Raci, I remember murmuring, “He can still pull off a Marcia Gay Harden!”) Very few great-man biopics make this much room for the wife and you’d expect even less from Pollock given that the star is also directing, but Ed Harris wisely lets the majority of scenes be steered by Harden’s funny, ferocious, and flat-out fabulous performance: You understand why Pollock loves her because Pollock loves her. Harden is handed a lot of exposition and scene-setting biopic dialogue and through sheer force of personality, she makes you believe a real person is saying every single one of those lines. She's so vivid in the role that by the end, you realize you’ve actually been watching a movie about Lee Krasner all along. God, she’s good! ♥♥♥♥♥
Nicholas D'Agosto: It’s telegraphed from the moment she enters, knocking on the door, full of the desire to insert herself into Pollock’s world — she will be the energy and hope, as well as lifeblood and anchor of this movie. Pollock is manic, cruel, loathing and self-loathing. He is difficult, to say the least, and he was a difficult man for me to live with in even just these two hours. How did she do it for decades? MGH’s “Lee Krasner” is reminding us of the answer again and again - Jackson Pollock was a true genius. In scene after scene MGH plays the adoring fan, the stern or fawning manager, the time-keeping or cooking or unconditionally loving mother. Only at brief times do we get the moments where they are lovers. It’s a heartbreaking tapestry of a woman who devoted herself to a man and talent who would never truly honor her or what she did to bring his gift into being… I marveled at the many quick scenes, packed to the brim with meaning and emotional explosiveness. The “You need, you need, you need…” scene is probably the lynchpin of these breakneck blowouts, as well as what most likely earned her the Oscar. As I reflect more on how integral she is to the story, I wonder if she should have been nominated in the leading actress category? ♥♥♥♥♥
Vella Lovell: I was so glad to see Marcia in a role like this so early in her career. She’s harsh, is working with a sharp, accented energy, is playing a headstrong and intelligent woman who puts a mans' needs completely before her own—so her two scenes where she loses her shit are extremely enjoyable and cathartic. While I take issue with this being considered a "supporting" role (she's clearly the second lead of the film), I appreciated her performance. ♥♥♥
Nathaniel R: What a thrill ... force. From the moment we first spot her, trying to wedge herself into Pollock's doorway she owns the film\. Watch any scene and you'll find something to admire but my favourite is a beat that would be easy to miss as Lee realizes Pollock has finished a mural, painting the whole night while she slept. There's a flash of a satisfied smile that's inspired and just perfect. She's excited to see it but it's also her triumph as his ultimate champion, effortfully pushing him towards just this kind of breakthrough. That ultra-severe helmet of a haircut, might have done a lesser performer is, but this is a face you want framed so tight it hurts... just in case the camera misses anything. Just about the only thing Harden can't sell is that groaner line "you've cracked it wide open" that follows the movie's paint-splatter origin story misstep. ♥♥♥♥
Reader Write-Ins: "I was worried that a re-watch would dampen my love for this performance, but I was so glad to be proven wrong– Harden is stunning. POLLOCK? More like KRASNER." - Aditya B. (Reader average: ♥♥♥♥)
Actress earns 26 ❤s
KATE HUDSON as "Penny Lane" in Almost Famous
Synopsis: A teenage groupie -- she prefers the term "band-aid" -- tours and shacks up with her favourite band, dreams of moving to Morocco, and fascinates a young rock journalist.
Stats: 21 yrs old, 6th film, 3rd billed. 1st and only nomination. 26 minutes of screen time (or 21% of the running time).
Eric Blume: Hudson is saddled with the quintessential Dream Girl role, which was grossly popular from straight white guy directors during this window of filmmaking. Penny Lane is meant to be a lot of things: a real person, an idea, an ideal, and a romanticized representation of first love. That’s a lot for a 20-year-old actress to take on, but Hudson does manage to be all of those things in individual moments. Scene to scene, she delivers Cameron Crowe’s vision of this character, but somehow it doesn’t all come together coherently. He’s smart to lean into Hudson’s effortless natural charm, and she’s affecting in a Hollywood-movie way, but she never fully lands as a human… everything feels played at, rather than lived in. ♥♥
Kyle Buchanan: The Oscars love a transformative role but I’m happy whenever they nominate someone simply for radiating megawatt movie-star charisma — isn’t that so much of what we go to the movies for? In fact, I’d argue that Hudson is so winning here that it makes the film’s romantic entanglements more than a bit lopsided: She’s the only one in the movie who genuinely feels like a 70’s icon, and any of these men would have been lucky just to follow her from city to city. ♥♥♥♥
Nicholas D'Agosto: I’ll admit I went into this viewing with low expectations for Kate Hudson’s performance. Why? Did I mistakenly associate her career as consisting entirely of rom-coms? Did I think the success of the movie was going to be a tide that lifted all boats? I don’t really know. I was wrong. She just kept winning scenes in ways that surprised me. She made believable the unrelenting ephemerality of the character, embodied Penny’s guardian angel persona with determined brightness and empathetic care, and showcased a relatable broken heart through a character that for much of the film moves like air. Her truth is shifting from moment to moment, and when William says to her “I can’t keep up with you,” I understood him. I delightedly couldn’t either. ♥♥♥♥
Vella Lovell: Her performance is—not to use this word to death, but—iconic. It just is. It is so pure. She has unfiltered, raw energy and the acting channels are open. She has that sweet, playful smile and she does this thing with her mouth where she acts like she’s kind of scrutinizing you—like she’s wise beyond her years, and then she gives a little wink and it captures some essence of youth and adulthood smacking each other in the face, and it punches you right in the gut. The iconic scenes in this movie—Penny Lane with the fur jacket and sunglasses, Penny in the "Tiny Dancer" singalong, Penny using leftover streamers to glide across an empty school gym floor—the sadness, pause, single tear, and smile before she quips back “What kind of beer?” I think this is the best thing Kate has ever done. ♥♥♥♥♥
Nathaniel R: I felt sure that this would be the performance that would age most poorly from this movie and I was wrong. While Penny Lane has all the traditional impossibility of the 'dream girl' role which is 'be an idea and an ideal and a real person and (in this case) a memory' she's also somewhat freed by it. Given the task Hudson doesn't have to have technically perfect acting or even paint a cohesive portrait (though I wish it were, particularly in the back half of the movie where the writing around her character gets wonkier). Mainly she has to glow and enchant and above all else be believeable as a totally indelible figure in a young man's coming of age, which she handily accomplishes. She's best in her scenes with Patrick Fugit, where she can work at this most crucial task plus dig in to the dichotomy of being both 'the older woman' and way too young for the life she's leading. ♥♥♥
Reader Write-Ins: "Effortlessly charismatic. Two decades later and Hudson’s performance has not lost any of its appeal and I was again rocked by her magnificent work." - Eoin D. (Reader average: ♥♥♥)
Actress earns 21 ❤s
FRANCES MCDORMAND as "Elaine Miller" in Almost Famous
Synopsis: A professor and mother worries that her children are growing up too fast and that they'll join the drug culture of the 1970s
Stats: 43 yrs old, 22nd film, 2nd billed. Third nomination (of an eventual six. 1 previous win). 12 minutes of screentime (or 10% of the running time.)
Eric Blume: Similar to Hudson, McDormand delivers on Crowe’s vision of the mother character, who he wants us to see as prickly and difficult, but he (and McDormand) also want us to love her at every moment as well. On one level, McDormand gives the movie a brisk comic vibrancy and a fresh set of alternate beats to the main action. But she spends 80% of the movie without acting against another actor, so we rarely see any dimension to Mom, who ultimately remains a movie character without ever becoming real. McDormand is so skilled that she carries you over this limited role, and she’s always fun to watch. ♥♥
Kyle Buchanan: There are seven actors in history who have won more than two Oscars, and as far as I know, Frances McDormand is the only one of them who has also posed with a lit joint on the cover of High Times. I say this not to take anything from her performance in Almost Famous, which is filled with wonderful little grace notes like the flash of regret on her face whenever she alienates the children she’s trying so desperately to encourage. Still, I must confess that whenever her character panicked about drugs, I never actually bought it. Cameron Crowe had Meryl Streep in mind for this role, and it shows: You'd accept Streep as a rule-minded, abstemious mother, which is partly why her bathroom toke in It's Complicated carries such a naughty pop-cultural charge. ♥♥♥
Nicholas D'Agosto: How many ways must we praise the legendary Frances McDormand? So real, grounded and intelligent. So soulful, present and kind. In this character she somehow both conveys the “before” of our protagonists’ sheltered, rigid world, and yet creates a home that not only our protagonist wants to return to, but one in which other characters who are searching for what is “real” and “true” in life find resonance. She has grown, too, throughout the story; but it’s her dependability that is rewarded at the end of a film where dependability is in scant supply. The phone call scene with William is sweet and heartbreaking. And the phone call scene with Russell reminded me of the Liam Neeson “I will find you” phone call in TAKEN, except Frances did it eight years earlier and instead of death she threatened him with wisdom! ♥♥♥♥
Vella Lovell: Frances is such a pro. Such a specific, crafted character that I think in someone else’s hands could have come off as a caricature. Instead, she fills the screen with her complex, three dimensional, oddball, totally original performance. She really tethers the movie as the sole force pulling William away from just melting into band life. She feels real and lived in. She’s also perfectly hilarious in this movie. ♥♥♥♥
Nathaniel R: "My son has been kidnapped by rock stars!". First things first: McDormand is hilarious in this movie. But the role. If she couldn't bring that McDormand authenticity and innate and intimidating moral superiority to it, this anxious mom would have no weight and be even less believable than she is (would an over-protective mother be this okay with sending her kid off on a rock tour?). As frustratingly slight as the role is, I looked forward to each tiny cameo on the telephone. And that bear hug to her estranged daughter near the end is so perfect I almost threw in an extra heart. ♥♥
Reader Write-Ins: "McDormand does wonders with this ultimately sitcom-y character, succeeding in making her believable and real, no small feat. " - Robert K. (Reader average: ♥♥♥¾)
Actress earns 18¾ ❤s
JULIE WALTERS as "Mrs Wilkinson" in Billy Elliot
Synopsis: An unhappy woman finds a new purpose when a talented boy wanders into her girls ballet class. She takes him under her wing.
Stats: 50 yrs old, 15th film, 1st billed. Second nomination. 22 minutes of screentime (or 20% of the running time.)
Eric Blume: Walters couldn’t be better in this film, finding pockets for humor, pathos, and depth. In her first scene, she tells us what we need to know: she’s so bored teaching yet another batch of young girls that she has to talk and joke to herself to get by. She makes you believe that the presence of a young boy reignites this woman, and that he makes her think about new chances. She doesn’t overplay the “steely teacher” clichés inherent in this genre, and instead keeps things straightforward and direct. She plays stunningly off young Jamie Bell, where you can see that this seasoned actress feels inspired that the child actor opposite her is The Real Deal: they help each other in all of their scenes. She really would have been a worthy winner this year. ♥♥♥♥
Kyle Buchanan: The masterstroke of this performance is what it doesn’t give you, so let’s start with what you do get: Walters gives you world-weariness, belted jumpsuits, some excellent Cigarette Acting, and a wonderful, let-it-all-out dance number where she matches the ebullient Jamie Bell step for step. And then, at the end of the film, when our hero is accepted into ballet school and rushes to tell his teacher, you're expecting her to dissolve into happy tears. Instead, Walters cuts you off at the knees: Her pupil is leaving and that means she’s stuck in place. Her response is clipped and wounded and she gives Billy and the audience absolutely nothing. It’s such a shockingly real response, and I love that this movie, which is so desperate to crowd-please, allows her to have that final moment and never, ever walks it back. ♥♥♥♥
Nicholas D'Agosto: I loved this movie. The story was rich with character and life; the cinematography was smart and often surprising; the soundtrack was epic, informative and fun. Julie Walters benefitted from the quality of the piece as a whole. Certainly, she was lovely. The car scene, where she drops Billy off, showcased all her best colors at once - she was honest, kind, empathetic, charming, devilishly funny, and caring enough to see this young boy as a comrade. I thought this scene was foreshadowing a greater arc for these two, but we didn’t get quite as much as I expected. There’s the joyful and hilarious dance scene, and there’s the rough and gritty fun of the kitchen scene where she comes to confront Billy’s father, but mostly she’s the task-master we get at the beginning, and I didn’t find her to be entirely compelling in that role. I think the story wanted me to feel a deeper sense of bitterness emanating from her, a discontentedness, a person made hard by her regret (Billy says as much in the bathroom stall scene), and I just couldn’t shake the feeling that those elements of her performance felt a tad forced, or even absent. She was best in the car; relaxed and fun and wise and full of optimism. ♥♥♥
Vella Lovell: An incredibly inhabited role. Absolutely insane prop work—the cigarette is glued to her hands for most of the film. She is so dry and grounded in this film, and completely stays in her lane, she doesn’t try to push or do more, yet she is the catalyst for the whole plot of the movie. She is a true “broad.” Her pleasure and generosity while teaching Billy is heartbreakingly juxtaposed to when he tells her he’s leaving for ballet school. He says “I’ll miss you,” and she bluntly says “No, you won’t,” before smoking and returning to class again. She very plainly and openly embodies all the teachers that pour their energy into students, only to have them say goodbye. This is one of my favorite films and it makes me sob every time I watch it. She’s understated, underrated, and truly a gem. ♥♥♥♥♥
Nathaniel R: I had misremembered this movie, reducing it over the years to an easy crowdpleaser and feel good drama. The film that's sitting right there twenty-years later is significally better than that, though it is also that. The truly tough working class drama elements are (mostly) offscreen but Walters especially brings it into the frame with her. It's there in her hard exterior, the chain smoking, and even the way she jokes or responds to something funny, a smile tempting her mouth but she's too worn or wary or dulled out to grin. The only time we really see her let loose is in the presence of Billy as his audition approaches and they dance together. Her life finally has purpose and drive. And joy, too... though that's reserved for her physicality in the longshots. My heart just breaks for her at film's end when she underplays her exit and removes herself. We've gotten too close and this will hurt her more than us. (I love Harden's work so much but given that it's a leading role my vote goes to Walters in this lineup.) ♥♥♥♥
Reader Write-Ins: "Ever delightful. Her skillful playing of spiky dance teacher Mrs. Wilkinson, a character that could have easily become a caricature, adds so much to the film and Billy’s journey." - Joel6 (Reader average: ♥♥♥♥)
Actress earns 23 ❤s
RESULT: Harden was the surprise winner at the Oscars though it made perfect sense in retrospect. Here at the Smackdown, she also takes the prize with chain-smoking Walters in honorable mention position.
In the reader polling alone, the battle for the win was more intense than amongst our talking head panelists. Harden/McDormand/Walters were actually neck-and-neck-and-neck throughout as your ballots came in. Harden still managed the win but just barely with Walters just a half-a-heart away from pulling off a surprise upset. If you played along at home and voted, '...thank you for watching the tapes.'
THE FULL PODCAST CONVERSATION
Download at the bottom of this post 👇 or on iTunes to hear the in-depth discussion with our marvelous guests. [All Previous Smackdowns]
Reader Comments (67)
orwell -- loved reading this. i feel kind of this way about ALMOST FAMOUS too. I didn't love it at the time but i still think the actors are quite good. thanks for the rec on Marcia Gay Harden book. didn't know she did one!
Marcia, Marcia, Marcia! Harden was the only logical choice, so I'm glad she won the Oscar. And the smackdown lol. She's one of the best winners ever in this category. Dench shouldn't have been nominated. Peak Weinstein tomfoolery.
Great podcast!
My order:
1. Hudson
2. Walters
3. McDormannd
4. Harden
5. Dench
Am I the only one who loves Kathleen Turner in The Virgins Suicides?
sad man -- i basically love Kathleen Turner in everything so no, you are not the only one :) that said i dont have strong memories of that movie so should probably watch again.
Sad man -- I'm working on a show inspired by The Virgin Suicides book, and have re-watched the film and parts of it many times since last year. These returns to the film have made me fall in love with Turner's performance. She's truly exquisite, managing to complicate our feelings about a character that could be easily portrayed in a villainous light. Even as we hate what she does to her daughters and feel impending tragedy, it's always easy to see the pain that fuels every decision. I think it's a remarkable example of actressing at the edges.
Parker Posey is my winner for this year!
This year's lineup was...unfortunate. Not a bad performance in the batch but not a single one I'd nominate, in any year really.
1) Samantha Morton / Jesus' Son
2) Jennifer Connelly / Requiem for a Dream
3) Parker Posey / Best in Show
4) Amanda Peet / The Whole Nine Yards
5) Jennifer Coolidge / Best in Show
@Claudio: That sounds great! Let us know when it's available.
@Nathaniel: It's definitely worth a rewatch! Not a perfect film but a very solid debut from Sofia. It should have been a score and song nominee at the very least.
@Claudio, Nathaniel and Sad man:
Yes! The Virgin Suicides is a favorite film of mine and I highly recommend rewatching! It's pretty spellbinding, and Turner, Kirsten Dunst and yes, even the dreaded James Woods (a big rightwing creep), are all terrific in it. I still think it's Sofia Coppola's best film. Easily.
BTW, I am def an Almost Famous apostate, and the rewatch for the Smackdown confirmed for me that it is a pretty overrated, albeit enjoyable as a slightly elevated early 70s-era rock n roll sitcom.The scene where Patrick Fugit lays one on the lips of an ODing Kate Hudson has not only not aged well, it was gross in the first place. It says a lot about what Cameron Crowe really thinks of his female characters.
Rob -- we actually talked about that scene in our conversation but i had to delete it for time reasons. Maybe I'll put up a "deleted scenes" thing as we speak longer on both Pollock and Almost Famous I think
I admire Pollock more than I like it. The intensity of the film and its heavy handed performances quickly become exhausting. So much of the film is done in close up so that we don’t miss a single burrowed brow or nervous tic. My senses are left overwhelmed.
Claudio working on more awards worthy material? Swoon!
It's a stage show. Hopefully, going to open for a limited run in Lisbon this next September.
The Lisbon sisters in Lisbon!
UGH! I forgot about Dunst! She may even be my winner. Coolidge or Peet would take the ax to make way for Dunst. Connelly, Coolidge, Dunst, Morton, Parker...ya, that looks about perfect.
@Nathaniel: It would be very interesting to hear that discussion of the aforementioned scene in Almost Famous. I was really surprised/not surprised by it and would be eager to hear the opinions of others...
Also am eager to hear about the 1946 Smackdown panel because at least two of the nominees are from films that read as fairly bizarre nowadays (only have one left to watch and it may well join the other two films). I expect a lively discussion (ahem) and really look forward to it!
Just dropping back in to say I finally had a chance to listen to the podcast. Wonderfully entertaining with lots of terrific back and forth on what everyone got out of the different performances and how each person reacted to each in individual ways. A well-spent 75 minutes!